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The section outside the cut has been slightly edited after sleeping
This is not a rant, but we got our Mithril comments back and I do have a few things I want to say. I am keeping them here, because I really have no interest in the big brouhaha.
I want to talk about Jim's feedback first, (and this is as close to a rant as I will get.) Jim got this remark as part of his feedback on his story Whistling Past The Graveyard though what annoys me about it is not specific to the story:
Very atmospheric, though the gap it fills is not necessarily one that needs filling.
I do understand what this reviewer means, or I think I do - but that isn't what is being said. Please! It's fanfiction - either *every* gap is worth thinking about or *none* is.
If none, we can all hang up our pixels, folks.
Jim's vignette contrasts the way two different members of the fellowship, raised in two different cultures, react when confronted with the dead. It also, though seen through Boromir's eyes, gives us a look at Gimli's culture, and how the fellowship allow his spiritual needs to take the lead in the desecrated graveyard of Moria, where the dead are his own.
If these things are not worth considering, none of my little parallel symbolism moments has any reason to exist either.
I can feel myself getting a little ranty, so I will stop there and let you tell me what you think about that statement.
Inside the cut is my feedback, both good and bad and for the moment, without comment. (What I am leaving out is feedback on Corsairs, which was a collaboration)
I am slightly infamous at HASA for showing my review decisions without permission. Sorry - you gave them to me, they're mine now. Generally I only show my declines because I am not about to edit a story without getting more than one opinion.
I seldom edit a story at that stage, since I don't usually show them until I think I am done, and there is no future in trying to please everybody. But I have gotten some excellent suggestions for improving a spot, bandied them about in my forum, and fixed them.
This entry is meant to give me a permanent record, but I also welcome comments, pro and con. In a day or two I will be asking a couple of specific questions about places I am considering editing.
feed (back) the fileg
Lord of the Rings: Gifts of Life
This won the category, and I am proud of that, in spite of all the negative discussion and arguing. I was surprised that it, of all my stories, won, because I don't think it is my strongest work. (My Gimli is based on my friend Christopher Quinn - if he had had that air conditioner dropped on him before I wrote it, I might have given Gimil a lovely dueling scar)
- This was well written, wonderfully paced, and had an excellent style. The dialogue was such that I could hear the characters saying the same things in actual Tolkien. It really made me think of hobbit culture, and of dwarven culture. It captures the spirit of Tolkien’s world, in all its complexities. The reason that this didn’t make the list was simply that when I went back over the stories again, in an attempt to narrow it down, for a moment or two I didn’t remember what this story was about. It just wasn’t as memorable as the others in the group.
- Original and very well crafted. Good dialogue & ensemble writing; lovely thoughtful concept. Perfect for this category.
Gapfiller: Gifts of Life
this took the silver, or runner up spot in this category
- Beautifully moving and fills a gap in a really original way.
- This was well written, wonderfully paced, and had an excellent style. The dialogue was such that I could hear the characters saying the same things in actual Tolkien. It showed the time before Aragorn’s wedding and the gift making in a way I’d never thought of before. It really made me think of hobbit culture, and of dwarven culture. It captures the spirit of Tolkien’s world, in all its complexities.
- Thoughtfully written and not drawn out. Practically flawless. Style beautifully handled. Touches on friendships forged by the Fellowship not often found in fic, and relates well the altruism of the friendships about which Tolkien wrote. Wonderfully in character, giving readers a rare glimpse of Gimli’s “softer side,” if I may use those words.
Alternative universe or crossover: The Corsair Papers
This made the finals, but I have not discussed showing this feedback with Flick, so I won't. I was surprised and pleased it got noticed, and I will tell you I feel I had little to do with it beyond the idea for a song and introducing Flick and Lee
Hobbits: Telling the Bees
This did not make it to the semi-finals
- Pleasant tale – Sam tells the bees of Frodo’s passing. Simple, atmospheric. But other than beekeeper and a Celtic tradition, little of hobbitry, and Sam refers to himself as ‘a simple man’ – which Sam would never do!
- Reasonable writing, with some nice phrases, but I didn't feel it was *that* special. Occasional grammar/spelling errors annoying in such a short piece. Interesting transferred custom for hobbits. Focuses on Sam, and his feelings about Frodo. Sam refers to himself as 'a simple man', which felt a bit odd in this context.
Men: Breathe
This was a semifinalist in this category
- The author says these three vignettes weren’t written together, and it shows – I don’t think they quite gel, though it’s a valiant attempt. The first one is the most effective, linking a childhood memory to wartime horror, and the last one is moving; the third one does not add much to Faramir’s own description of that scene.
-This is really three stories about Faramir. The first two worked beautifully together; the third seems tacked on, and disrupts the symmetry of the first two.
- A bit too predictable for my taste.
Tolkien character: Breathe
Breathe was commended in this category
- Not sure these fit perfectly. The middle one in particular does not expand very much upon canon. I like the last one best; it’s original and effective.
- Beautifully written, good characterization, but doesn't add much that's not been seen before.
- Lovely characterisations. The first two pieces have a great structure. Last piece is weaker than the first two, which I think stood better alone.
Original character: Slouching Towards Gondolin
Runner up for this category
Very unusual, memorable, interesting writing, suffers a bit in this category as the OC isn't strongly developed as an *individual*
Other races: Slouching Towards Gondolin
Finalist in this category
Slouching was also the runner up for Best Silmarillion in the Voter's Choice
- Highly original interesting vignette. Interesting choice of voice for the orc, and some lovely writing here. I liked the external view of Elves presented. It misses out a bit because the orc is more a mouthpiece for his race than a real individual, he never comes alive.
- I ADORED this... It's short, simple, raw and terribly believable. It is orc - pure, real and just seething. I don't know how high I can score it simply because there are so many excellent fics in this category, but I liked this VERY much.
- Good idea with some good descriptions. Occasional lapses in tone (e.g. "think they have it all figured out").
Ascension was a semi-finalist for Poetry (long) but generated no reviews
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Date: 2004-08-11 07:36 am (UTC)But the comments you got for one of my favourite stories of all time, the Breathe triad... I am glad I dissociated myself from the MA when I did. The myopy of some of the scorers and judges, if comments such as these are any guide, is overwhelming. The third one is the consummation, the recapitulation, of the previous two stories!
doesn't add much that's not been seen before.
I wonder if this person and I inhabit the same universe. I certainly haven´t seen the like of it.
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Date: 2004-08-11 03:13 pm (UTC)As for the line you picked out of my feedback - yes, I will admit that is the line that strikes my heart. I am willing to concede that I have no plot, that many people write better and stronger prose, that these small interactions are not what everybody is interested in, etc.
But I wrote it because I could not find it anywhere else.
I think this is telling in the same way:
This is really three stories about Faramir.
No, this is three stories about Faramir and Boromir. About what they gave, and what they got from each other. About the fact that they are two individual souls with individual talents who each supported the other.
Usually, this sort of feedback would make me consider the writing - if I have failed to be clear, to make my point. But in the case of Breathe, I am unwilling to conceed that point. I think it is obvious. I just think readers in this fandom have been conditioned not to consider it possible. Which is why *nothing new to say* got to me.
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Date: 2004-08-11 04:24 pm (UTC)I don't think it can be said often enough what praise from someone who has read a story for every pause, phrase and symbol and still finds it worth reading means to a writer.
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Date: 2004-08-11 09:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-11 11:21 am (UTC)MA comments
Date: 2004-08-11 02:07 pm (UTC)Oh well. I'm over it now.
Your story is gorgeous, and they better not have said ANYTHING poor about it.
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Date: 2004-08-11 03:37 pm (UTC)I have nothing at all against these opinions, by the way - as opinions or as feedback. But I do have a big problem with personal taste in a reviewing or judging situation.
If Jim's story was declined because the other stories in its category were more interesting, I have no compliant. (and I suspect that is what the revier actually meant)
If someone has decided some places in the timeline are more worthy than others - I have a problem with that.And I would call that criteria for being a bad judge.
And if they can only read a story like "Whistling" as a short piece where all we see is that Gimli is superstitous - I would call that criteria for being a bad *reader.*
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Date: 2004-08-11 04:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-11 11:42 am (UTC)Fileg, I can't belive the 'not a gap worth filling' comment! ... I think I'm going to have to parse that as some sort of personal preference, because, as you say, who decides what parts of the story are 'worthy' enough to be told?
*grin* That gives me an idea for a drabble challenge - focus on the 'insignificant' moments.
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Date: 2004-08-11 03:42 pm (UTC)(deletes filthy graphic idea)
I am always getting complaints that I show my declines *without permission* But I have *always* shown them. It makes better stories, and if more if us did it, it might make for better reviewers (see the 2 remarks above)
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Date: 2004-08-11 03:28 pm (UTC)But I also think the reviewers need to be reviewed. This sacrosanct aura of the confessional buisness pisses me off. It's anonymous, get over yourself. And it's about *my* work.
I have learned a lot about being a better writer/editor from my declines. (and from Chris's, Ness's, Avon's, Jim's...) And also learned that some people are just not good readers (you may give me vanity demerits for that if you like)
Since there is no real way to require reviewers to have credentials, I think we should speak up and point out how good a job they are doing. I find that easier to do with my declines - which I think are well founded and astute, which arbitrary, and which so bad I would decline them if *I* had the option.
As with my politics, awareness is everything.
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Date: 2004-08-11 11:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-11 03:47 pm (UTC)I could write a drabble about Frodo having breakfast, and how important a gap does that seem?
But what if he can no longer get nutmeg/oranges/your choice here because they used to come up from the South? Might I not have something to say?
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Date: 2004-08-11 04:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-11 12:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-11 03:01 pm (UTC)The response I received from Carl Hostetter read:
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Date: 2004-08-11 04:01 pm (UTC)I am in the camp that thinks a great story that needs a few corrections in boilerplate, should result in a rave review and a list of simple corrections
And I am tired of seeing fiction corrected by people who have style manuals that are designed for buisness or technicla writing. Use your eyes and your brain - is this voice working or not?
My current peeve is the idea that using adverbs weakens your writing. Well, it was Stephen King who said that, what makes him an authority? I happen to think he's a hack, and I am sure there are plenty of people who think the writers I like are hacks. That's why one guy doesn't get to decided. (And by the way, he uses the forbidden adverbs himself, he's just telling others not to do it...)
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Date: 2004-08-11 05:05 pm (UTC)Not to mention that some browsers don't show the marks
Which is why I generally leave them out.
using adverbs weakens your writing.
To be fair to King, I've seen this particular "rule" in a lot of books, not just his. Of course, the true version is as Gene Wolfe expresses it: Cut adjectives, adverbs, similes and metaphors which do not shed light or develop the narrative voice. but that's much less quotable. :-)
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Date: 2004-08-11 05:20 pm (UTC)I also did not expect concrit from the judges, but there is some to be had - some of the remarks on my stories (bith good and bad) make me question if what I *intended* to say got through. The comes back to me in most cases - was I clear enough, how can I be clearer.
I stand by my annoyance at the remark "not a gap worth filling"
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Date: 2004-08-11 04:08 pm (UTC)Maybe I *should* consider nominating myself. It has left me wondering if Gifts got noticed because people seem to think of it as a Hobbit story. Does Faramir negate Pippin in River, then? So many questions, me.
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Date: 2004-08-11 02:25 pm (UTC)Avon
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Date: 2004-08-11 04:16 pm (UTC)There are some interesting observations in mine, some of the nice things make me uncomfortable enough to squirm where *I* don't think I earned them, and a couple of places have suggested editing spots to look at, which I am always grateful for, whether I ultimately edit or not.
I am a little boggled by the thought that my Orc is not an individual, especially after all the hornets I stirred up when I first wrote him, for giving him a soul. And because I think his sense of self comes out partly out of the collective weapon they are (so sort of like getting feedback saying I had not made a Borg character individual enough...)
And I am completely boggled that both reviewers said Sam would never call himself a simple man. I would *love* to see citings for this, because this is something I could and *would* edit if I were convinced. Perhaps I should have Sam refer to himself as a ninnyhammer?
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Date: 2004-08-11 05:14 pm (UTC)A thought just occurred to me: is it possible that the reviewers were quibbling over the term man in the phrase simple man? If so, both reviewers should have been more precise in their comments.
But even so, technically Hobbits are still accounted as belonging to the race of Men. I won't bore you with all the research into the canonical support for this, but I can assure you that it does indeed exist.
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Date: 2004-08-11 08:29 pm (UTC)Well! That's fixable, and I will think about doing it. My goodness, they could have *said* that...
BTW- I gave it a quick read through, and ran it through three different spell chackers. They flag "elanor" and "Crickhollow" but nothing else. I will have to go over it in more detail, but I am wondering if this is an American vrs UK thing, which I will never win,since no matter which you choose, someone is always willing to mark you as a traitor to the other side...
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Date: 2004-08-12 02:57 pm (UTC)*I had to use myEin - thank you! :-D*
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Date: 2004-08-11 04:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-11 04:21 pm (UTC)Re: Gap filling - I don't understand the comment. Just because the reviewer didn't think the gap needed filling doesn't mean there isn't one there, if that makes sense.
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Date: 2004-08-11 05:11 pm (UTC)Not so long ago, someone boggled me by saying she didn't understand why anyone would write fanfic for LOTR (or any book fandom where all the books were published, or in fact any movie) because we knew the ending....
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Date: 2004-08-11 05:20 pm (UTC)It misses out a bit because the orc is more a mouthpiece for his race than a real individual, he never comes alive.
Mmm - I would have thought the very fact that he is a mouthpiece was indicative of the 'hive' mentality that seems to pervade the Orcs as a race - they don't think for themselves, above self-preservation; they act as a mass out of peer pressure rather than discipline and the cult of the individual was actively breed out of them at all stages of their development by Sauron and Saruman. Thus your characterization would be completely accurate - and I enjoyed the originality of that story tremendously!
Occasional grammar/spelling errors annoying in such a short piece.
This is my personal bug-bear. Yes, many and obvious spelling mistakes are irritating, but the nit-picking fascistic grammar martinets drive me bananas! If they can demote a piece of writing for a misplaced comma or two then they don't deserve the title of critic - that's if that appellation can ever be seen as an honour! I deal in the world of hard, professional critical appraisal. They will tear your characterisation, plot and story construction to shreds, and not always kindly, but nobody, absolutely nobody would dream of telling you you had your punctuation wrong - that's a job for a computer spell-checker, or a publisher's proof-reader. The quality of the ideas is of far greater significance than the accuracy of the use of the apostrophe! Even more so when they [HASA reviews] suggest my British-English spelling and conventions are wrong against the 'standard' of American ones. Grrrr! I will use '...our', not'..or'; I will not use '...ize'instead of '...ise'.
Sorry *sheepish look* rant over.
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Date: 2004-08-12 12:08 am (UTC)Avon
(Mind you, I do have to occasionally ask people, 'Is that a mistake or is it an American spelling?')
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Date: 2004-08-12 04:56 pm (UTC)I can live with being corrected - it's the ones who go -
'*sniff* you've used an apostrophe in the wrong place', but never mention the content of the story that get to me.
At which point I want to shriek:
"Ok, my pixels have produced an abhorrent punctuation mark, but what do you think about what I'm saying in the story!!!" ;)
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Date: 2004-08-13 12:35 am (UTC)Oh, I want a t-shirt that says that! ;-)
Well, you should be proud of me - I'm now resisting pointing out typos etc in two stories because I don't really have other comments to balance it. It's driving me stark staring bananas, but I am resisting. ;-) I can't seem to help it - I just read at that level. Besides, to be honest, after the criticism of the MA judges and some recent discussions in other places about what sort of feedback is acceptable I may never offer anything more indepth than a typo check again. ;-)
Avon
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Date: 2004-08-12 03:06 am (UTC)I really am not complaining about my own feedback, but is is interesting *and comforting* to find you lot questioning the same things I question.
When I get remarks like that one about my Orc, I wonder if I have failed to get what I want across. I don't expect everyone to get it, but if nobody gets it, I have serious revising to do. I like him as he is, and I doubt I will change him. The collective identity was intentional here.
I am willing to consider the other comment - I purposly have his thought and speech degrading as he loses himself in his battle frenzy - but if I have gotten too modern, I can work on that.
The spelling/grammar thing - I am neither a good speller, nor perfect with grammar, but I had very good beta for this. Avon and Ness both read it - and they usually spot everything, even things I have done intentionally. I have run it through three spell checkers and only had "elanor" and "Crickhollow" get flagged. If anyone wants to point them out to me, I will fix them.
I have given up trying to guess on American vrs UK spelling. Whichever I use, someone is going to call me on it. I lean toward UK myself,especially for Arda but my only personal criteria is not to mix it - one or the other.
*hugs* you again, just because I can.
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Date: 2004-08-12 12:48 pm (UTC)Obviously I didn't on this occasion - sorry. I think I just responded to it emotionally. Anyway, I have just done the fine toothcomb bit and found some minor stuff.
but how much could I say without loosing my own way
- needs to be losing.
the last of this years stores - year's
he had told me many stories to keep me out of my fathers way - father's
Also in one spot you've got Spring, but in another autumn: I'm always shaky on whether one should or shouldn't capitalise seasons (though I think it's not) but I'd change one or the other so they are consistent.
Hope you don't mind me posting that here.
Cheers,
Avon
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Date: 2004-08-12 04:09 pm (UTC)And I hope I didn't make it seem that You or Ness missed these. Being a mac user, I have so many different versions in my files (since what I can upload to one site never seems to work at another) that I often forget which was the corrected version. That's one of the reasons I am trying to get organized with a fiction journal, so I always know which is the master copy.
I will fix these tonight, eagle eye. *many hugs*
no subject
Date: 2004-08-13 12:19 am (UTC)No, no, I didn't take it that way. I was just a bit uncomfortable pointing them out somewhere so public.
Avon